Legislature(1999 - 2000)
02/10/1999 08:06 AM Senate FIN
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE FINANCE COMMITTEE
LOGNOTES
February 10, 1999
GENERAL SUBJECT(S): Results Based Budgeting:
Missions and Measures Training by Craig Holt
JOINT SENATE AND HOUSE FINANCE COMMITTEES
The following overview was taken in log note format. Tapes and
handouts will be on file with the Senate Finance Committee through the
21st Legislative Session, contact 465-2618. After the 21st
Legislative session they will be available through the Legislative
Library at 465-3808.
Time Meeting Convened: 8:06 am
Tape(s): SFC-99 # 25, Side A & B
26, Side A
PRESENT:
Senator Adams - not
present
Senator Parnell
Senator Torgerson - not
present
Senator Phillips
Senator Donley
Senator Leman
Senator Wilken
Senator Green
Senator P. Kelly
ALSO PRESENT:
Representative Eldon Mulder, Co-Chair, House Finance Committee;
Representative Gene Terriault, Co-Chair, House Finance Committee;
Representative Gary Davis;
Representative Con Bunde;
Representative Bill Williams;
Representative Alan Austerman;
Representative Gail Phillips;
Craig Holt, President, Managing Total Performance, Inc.;
Jack Kreinheder, Senior Policy Analyst, Office of Management and
Budget;
David Teal, Director, Division of Legislative Finance;
Ginger Blaisdell, Phil Okeson, Brent Doutt, Fiscal Analysts,
Division of Legislative Finance.
Tape: SFC - 99 #25, Side A 8:06 AM
Co-Chair Sean
Parnell
Introduction.
I'm joined by Co-Chair Mulder of the House
Finance Committee plus other members of the
Senate and House Finance Committees and
other members of the Legislature
Our focus is going to be on Results Based
Budgeting, which began last year. Last year
the finance committees began implementing
results based budgeting and working to
imbed performance measures into our budget
so we can build more accountability into
our budget process. We as the legislature
needed help in understanding that and also
to learn one approach to doing that. In the
process last year we developed missions and
measures with the Administration and passed
a budget bill containing missions and
measures. We're going to continue that
work. In the budget subcommittees the
subcommittee chairs will be looking at the
missions and measures established last
year, continue refining them with the
departments and will be developing new
missions and measures for other divisions.
Introduction of Craig Holt, brought to the
meeting with the help of the AOGA and the
Alaska Chamber of Commerce.
Encourage members to interact with Mr. Holt
in the discussion.
Craig Holt
President, Managing Total Performance, Inc.
a consulting firm.
(Gave brief background of company and it's
activities.)
I have talked about your efforts to others.
You have a truly unique situation.
I encourage you to get a copy of the
handout. Included is an article I wrote
about performance based budgeting, "Can It
Really Be Done?"
The key is that there needs to be a lot of
subtenant things that happen in the
government sector to allow this to happen.
One of the key things is to have elected
officials move to more of a results
approach to not necessarily the cutting
side of the budget.
What do you get for the remaining billions
of dollars?
The issue really becomes, "You're spending
a lot, what did you get for it?" (Analogy
to financial manager) I don't give my
financial manager money without asking what
kind of return will I get for it. I'm not
talking about cutting back the amount I'm
investing.
I did get a preview of what the agencies
put forward. I was very pleased. There are
five or six very good examples of people in
the agencies that are taking this to heart
and doing a good job of missions and
measures and alignments. I'll talk about
them later. It's not universal, but you
are never going to get universal support.
They are trying to get the intent of the
Statement of Mission, which is
fundamentally, "what's the purpose of this
program?" The measures, which is the result
you're trying to accomplish, and then the
3-5 key measures of how you will know if
they've accomplished what they set out to
do.
With respect to prioritization in a fiscal
situation where you don't have enough to go
around and you have to make some decisions.
A performance-based approach will help you
make more informed better decisions and
better explain your decisions.
I don't know anyone stepping forward saying
we don't need the money anymore. Missions
and measures will help you to explain your
decisions.
There is no silver bullet. It won't make
the decision any easier.
Relate to my two girls, ages 9 and 6.
Speak to the decisions made differently for
each daughter. This process doesn't make
it easier to make decisions, but it is
easier for them to understand the decisions
and move ahead.
I believe the missions and measures will
give you the data to make better-informed
decisions. But it is not a computer. You
people were elected to make these tough
decisions.
It's a tough time. You are moving into a
difficult period for your state. These can
really help you make a more informed
decision.
I applaud your efforts as an elected body
to try to move towards a result approach to
government. Johnson County, Kansas is one
other place where the chair is working to
implement this same approach.
Co-Chair Sean
Parnell
Regarding, Johnson County, Kansas is that
the only other place where the elected
legislative branch going forward with this
system? In the other places it is more the
executive branch?
Craig Holt
Yes that I'm aware of.
Handout: Page 2, Investing in Results.
Improvement framework. This should be
similar to what you've already done. The
"missions" and "core services" is your
"what and why". Just doing these two
things will start to get your focus on the
services that Alaskans are getting for
their money. Not everything that happens in
government is a core service. The hard
part is determining what those are. Core
services would be maintain roadways or get
people jobs. It is not necessarily the
activity that goes behind it.
You will start to see a couple things. You
will probably see some overlap between the
departments. Just brining some sense of
order to that misalignment will help your
accomplishments. This is a critical
exercise.
Mission is a fundamental statement of why
this organization exists.
It should only be a couple of sentences.
Others say mission statements should be
very long.
The bottom line is that if you can't
understand the mission of the department in
a very concise fashion, why would you
invest in it?
Your job isn't to seek to understand. The
agencies should be sharing with you their
mission so you can move into further
conversation.
The core services are just statements of
the broad category of results you are
trying to accomplish.
Co-Chair Sean
Parnell
In defining that mission last year, our
focus was on starting with the
constitution, moving into the statutes that
authorize the particular department. We
looked to that statutory legal framework to
identify the mission as it existed. We
tried to crunch that down into an easily
understood mission statement. Is there
anything else we could do along those
lines?
Craig Holt
That is a very appropriate method for your
state. New York is very convoluted. I
remember working here with Cheryl several
years ago and we looked at Fish and
Wildlife, which was very clear. There was
some duality in the mission then. I would
start with that and then crutch down and go
forward.
Co-Chair Sean
Parnell
Craig Holt
Then you can move into "options for service
delivery." Then you can ask if you should
out-service, contract out or privatize some
of the work. That conversation comes after
you decide what are the core services we
need to provide for Alaskans. This is the
"how." This is the purvey of the Executive
Branch. How they go about doing the
"how." Your job is to lay out the policy
and then check to see that the results were
achieved.
Regardless of who does it, there still
needs to be accountability for results. If
you are investing you get the feedback on
how well you did.
These 3 areas is where you should put your
focus, Gov. should focus on delivery
(pointing to chart)
Senator Randy
Phillips
This would be fine for the private sector.
There is an added dimension that is not
afforded to us. We have an executive
branch that has 20,000 full-time employees
we are only part time. How do we then
ensure accountability? I don't have time
to do this full time between June and
January.
Craig Holt
Accountability of results is for only the
core service of 3-5 measures not for more.
You should only need to look at quarterly
or semi-annually. Not day to day; that is
Executive Branch's job. There needs to be
a nested set of measures.
Co-Chair Sean
Parnell
That is were we are now, at a minimum. Our
accountability comes back to our budget
subcommittees. That's a once a year
process. The first thing we can do at our
meetings is ask, "How did you do on these
measures last year?" That's the only place
right now.
Senator Randy
Phillips
It might have done so much damage by then
you can't control it. That's the problem a
whole year later.
Craig Holt
I can tell you how some states do this. Do
you do quarterly allotments?
Senator Randy
Phillips
No.
Craig Holt
Do you do annual?
Senator Randy
Phillips
The only other thing I can think of right
now is to put that burden on the
Legislative Budget and Audit Committee.
But then you're making that committee full-
time legislators.
Representative Con
Bunde
We hear from constituents from time to time
saying we spend too much time budgeting and
we should do it bi-annually. If that were
the case, we would never get to any
results.
Senator Dave Donley
Not only that, but they don't do what you
tell them to do anyhow. Last year we put
in the public safety budget that we didn't
want them to buy another helicopter but
they bought one anyway.
Craig Holt
Again, we're going to talk about the
consequences for not doing things a little
later. This is a very important point. I
worked in a state that is bi-annual. We had
quarterly allotment spending and we had to
present out measures quarterly. It went to
the budget folks and they reviewed it.
Remember this is not a whole lot of
numbers.
Senator Randy
Phillips
But who's going to do this quarterly? You
don't expect us to be full-time legislators
do you?
Craig Holt
No I do not.
Co-Chair Sean
Parnell
We'll come up with another structure.
Craig Holt
I'm just trying to share how others are
using this.
Senator Dave Donley
We're saying that it's misleading to say
how others are using. We only have four
months to be legislatures. As you're doing
your presentation, you are not facing the
realities we're faced with here.
Craig Holt
Oregon had a part-time legislature and we
did this.
Senator Dave Donley
Maybe they had more staff.
Craig Holt
We can talk about the mechanics.
Senator Pete Kelly
I think it will all become clear when we
get into the consequences. Ultimately we
have the hammer. If we go through one cycle
where we hold them accountable, the next
time the discussion will be better and I
think the performance will be better.
Senator Dave Donley
I agree. Last year we had the same point
but we didn't use the hammer. Where we
tried to, they went around it anyway.
Senator Pete Kelly
But we didn't have this in place at that
time.
Senator Dave Donley
The Governor vetoed it out of the budget.
Senator Pete Kelly
It's still written down and we all agreed
to it. We can still hold them accountable.
Senator Randy
Phillips
Just trying to bring up some of the
problems. You will probably have some
answers later.
Craig Holt
You have to ask yourselves if your job is
budgeting or managing the expenditure of
funds, being good stewards. I think those
are very different. If it means you have
to think differently about how you monitor.
If you just do this once a year, it's
nothing more than a scorekeeping exercise
and the damage is done. Look at it to make
mid-course corrections.
Senator Dave Donley
Last year we made budget reductions and the
conference committee reinstated. Our work
went down the tube. All the hours spent on
this I thought we would get somewhere.
Then all the deals were made in the
backroom. Conference committees have to be
held accountable for the decisions made
throughout the process. It's frustrating
and wrong. Or else this is a waste of
time.
Representative
Eldon Mulder
Last year, Representative Mark Hanley
brought the two subcommittees
recommendations together and we made a
compromise. I don't think its just
conference committee, it was also
disagreements between the two
subcommittees.
Craig Holt
This substantive conversation is what's
going to make it work.
Page 3. You are investing in results not
government. Instead of giving money to
departments, you are investing in families,
jobs, agriculture, etc. Then you are
talking about results not the government
you're funding.
Page 4. Results Investment Organization
Budgeting. City of San Jose example. They
give money to the programs tied to the
specific organization. They are investing
money into an organization.
Senator Pete Kelly
Don't follow
Craig Holt
The city has a Park's dept, a Neighborhood
dept., a Recreation dept, a Planning and a
Support dept. They give money to the
different depts. Once they started looking
at the core service items, they decided
there were some broader results they wanted
to see happen. They want safer
neighborhoods, an active and involved
community. They want clean and usable parks
and public spaces. See the difference?
They said "We want to fund the results by
giving to the depts. Then see what they can
contribute to the results." (Continued
explanation)
What would be a result for Alaskans?
Senator Lyda Green
Statewide transportation network.
Others
Economic Development, Trade, more jobs...
Craig Holt
List those results. You won't have 50 for
AK. This is where you should start the
talking. It will show you potential
opportunity for people to work closer
together.
Senator Randy
Phillips
Fine to have those things up there but it
doesn't matter if your constituency is not
satisfied with the results.
Craig Holt
That's the final measure. Ask constituents
if they got their final dollar's worth.
How many elected offices are elected by the
entire state? (Two) You have to balance
your responsibility to your specific
elected area with the broader priorities
for the state. It's not easy. This will
stretch you.
Senator Randy
Phillips
It comes down to the majority veto
override. It's my job to convince ten
other senators and 21 representatives plus
the Governor to do what my constituents
want.
Craig Holt
Have any of you ever participated in a team
sport, music or drama? Fight it out here.
Then as you move through the process you
can implement it autocratically.
Representative Alan
Austerman
Did the finance committee put together a
statewide chart like this last year?
(No)
Representative Gail
Phillips
I think we should do that. I think we're
at that step.
Representative
Eldon Mulder
About three-quarters of the people at the
table were on a finance committee last
year. But we do have several that are new.
Craig Holt
Please stop me and ask the questions.
Page 5. Terminology
"Input" is the stuff that you give the
organizations to accomplish the results you
want.
"Output" is the products and services
delivered directly to a customer. (give
example)
Collectively those should link up to the
result you're trying to accomplish.
"Results" is the goal or objective that the
agency desires to accomplish. (Healthy
economy, diverse tourism industry, etc.)
"Performance Measures" are the actual
measures of how well we're doing. It is
different than a goal. A goal is a black or
white issue.
I encourage you to get clear on these
terminologies.
The agency needs to explain in your terms.
"Baseline" is the historical performance
upon what you actually compare. Get data
to see how well we are doing. Need to look
at the trend. If you are only looking
annually, then the trend is very important.
"Potential" is the best you would ever want
to be.
"Mission/Purpose" is the fundamental
reason.
Performance measures, should be efficiency
and effectiveness. We didn't talk about
the efficiency equation this last year. As
policy folks you are more focused on what
you're getting. But results have a cost to
it.
Page 6. What's Important to Measure.
What's important is the result, not the
specific activity or the tasks that happen.
In Oregon I took people down to the
specific detail. Those that knew it the
best. If you get down there you could win
more than if you stayed at the policy
level.
Result is the intended goal of the effort.
What matters? How hard I worked or the
result that happened for Alaskans. What
matters with my stockbroker? That he
worked real hard and I lost all my money,
or that we didn't lose the money? At a
certain point you have to come back to what
matters.
You don't disassociate anyone from the
budget process if they don't accomplish the
results you wanted. A lot of things could
affect the result. You want to know the
honest dialog about that. Example, winter
operations and heavy snowfall. If you only
budget a little, any amount over makes a
significant difference. Where did the
funds come from? Other programs. Important
to have honest dialog.
Senator Randy
Phillips
What was your average?
Craig Holt
We used a three-year average. You shorten
up based on the amount of change you are
going through. If there are significant
changes, your trends don't match your
events.
Co-Chair Sean
Parnell
For oil prices we shouldn't go to a twelve-
year average?
Craig Holt
That is meaningless. It might show you a
drop-off trend. Rolling averages tend to
mutate the extreme fluctuations, which are
good, if you have some degree of
consistency. But, if you have significant
changes you have to identify those and
adjust your trend projections consistent to
what you're trying to accomplish.
Senator Randy
Phillips
When dealing with the weather a three-year
average is a mini-second. I think a 5-10
year average is better.
Craig Holt
Your people are probably the best equipped
to deal with the weather. Please keep it in
perspective.
Examples: jobs training program. The
result is that the person gets a job.
City of New York example. They had parceled
out each piece and were efficient. It took
them three days to get to goal of getting
people jobs. They were very efficient at
their little piece but didn't focus on the
broader issue of, "does the person get a
job."
There was an overlap of departments. Both
had child care assistance. Cross over for
childcare coverage once person got a job,
they had to switch departments and there
was a 6-week delay. It is a coordination
effort.
Senator Randy
Phillips
Sounds like they needed a One-Stop Shopping
Center.
Craig Holt
Most important thing they needed to do was
go to a unified approach to assessment of
services. They didn't do it, and this is
still going on. It's not just having a
good idea. You need to stick to what you
commit to do.
Page 7, Balanced Set of Measures. Ask
ourselves, what did we accomplish.
The efficiency is what we are investing in.
The effectiveness is what did we
accomplish.
Efficiency is your cost, volume and output.
Effectiveness is more the quality and
customer satisfaction. Your customer is
your constituency plus the recipient of
that service.
Reason why this is a balance. "How Well" is
not is it cheaper or did we get the
results? It's the balance between them.
"How Well" is a combination you need to
wrestle and define.
Page 8, Performance Measurement is...
efficiency is making the best use of
resources. Effectiveness is how well you
delivered your services.
Tape: SFC - 99 #25, Side B 2:00 PM
Craig Holt
(Example of Hawaii restaurant experience.)
Not just what did the customer think, its
how well did we do?
Senator Randy
Phillips
I had one constituent unhappy with road
service. He didn't know he was paying for
limited road services. Once I explained,
he was more satisfied.
Craig Holt
Important to talk to them. Can't just be
customer driven. It is also understanding
what you are able to deliver.
Assumption is that you are doing the right
thing. You are delivering the service
consistent with the mission. If you aren't
this doesn't mean anything.
Doesn't matter that you are doing really
well at delivering a service that nobody
wants.
I'll talk now of specific measures. This
is the level you should now be at.
Page 9, Performance Measurement: Efficiency
These are specific departments and cost
indicators. (List program level measures
for the State of Oregon and detail.)
This is total cost.
This is the cost equation; you also have to
look at the other side.
FTE is full time equivalency
(Continue to list items in handout)
Need to define Administration as anything
that is not on-the road costs.
Receptionist needed to send drivers out to
fill a pothole. We look strictly at
headquarters. Everyone in an admin
position is not necessarily just an
administration cost.
Direct case management time per long-term
care client. (Elderly independent living
program example.) The idea is to spend less
time with them and to make them feel better
about themselves. If we spend more time
with them, it defeats the independence
purpose
Disability determination clearances per
total FTE.
Small energy loan program costs per loan
dollars.
Page 10, Performance Measurement:
Effectiveness.
Average wage at successful closure/living
wage. (detail) A lot of this is federally
driven.
Co-Chair Sean
Parnell
I want to re-emphasize that we're looking
at effectiveness measures. I missed last
year the difference between efficiencies
and effectiveness. That's why there is
confusion on our current measures. We were
focused more on one or the other
Craig Holt
We counseled you that way to more focus you
on the results you were trying to
accomplish. But it costs something. It's
important to look at both and to be clear
at what you're looking at. (Continue
referring to State of Oregon examples.)
You don't need bunches of these things. Two
to four of the right ones and you've got
it.
I want to brag about Child Support
Enforcement. Those folks actually set
forward a pretty decent set of four
measures. All they need is an efficiency
one and you're almost there.
(Continue referring to State of Oregon
examples.)
Do you think you might want to look at more
often then annually? Probably quarterly or
semi-annually
Guess who developed these measures?
Employees of the departments themselves.
It's pretty significant because these are
pretty well focused. Honed, by the way,
through their legislative process. There
was some negotiation. Quite frankly, there
was a disagreement on what the results
should be in some agencies. They worked it
out. Look at Oregon State Police, Missing
Children Recovered. They put that forward.
They said we're putting a lot of money into
doing this. The other thing is that they
did it for themselves. They did not want to
forget what they were in the business of
doing. When they put this up, their
responsiveness went from days to minutes as
a target.
Senator Randy
Phillips
Why are police investigating the child
abuse cases?
Craig Holt
The State of Oregon is set up that way. You
are asking the right questions.
At-fault truck accidents. Their efficiency
measure was safety inspection per person.
They said their big focus was on
inspection, so when they are inspecting
it's going to be safer. Can we do a very
good job at inspecting and still have a
truck slip through that's unsafe? If it's
happening all the time we've got a problem.
Oregon found that they wanted to catch the
abusive people that violated the weight
requirements. They have moved away from the
voluntary fixed scale weigh-ins, because
the drivers who used them were those in
compliance. They started "roving
investigation sites." Guess which one was
more effective in deterring weight
violations?
Representative Con
Bunde
I have this vision of people inspecting and
finding very safe trucks driven by
psychopaths.
Craig Holt
That would hit this definition. Their
mission was improved road safety. Roving
inspection sites was a method in achieving
that. They had another program called
driver education. You can have a perfectly
safe truck driven by someone on drugs. They
started seeing some of this stuff and so it
led them into the appropriate conversation.
If they said, "we're working as hard as we
can with inspections." If you only have
one program you will pump more money into
as opposed to asking if you're doing the
right thing because this is still going up.
Page 11, Example Program Performance
Measures. This is important because it
gets at the question that was asked.
Page 12, Detail Behind the Measures.
Important for staff and agency people to
pay attention to this one. It should have
definition of the measure, and what it
actually demonstrates and the reporting
frequency. (Army Corps of Engineers,
Usable Harbors example) Not the one to look
at daily or weekly. Your job is to look at
performance of overall measures.
Page 13, Aligning "Programs" With Results:
Family and Youth Services. The result is
getting people a job. The "dollars per
client" is an efficiency measure. "Percent
of clients who get the job" is an
effectiveness measure. "Percent of client
return" is another effectiveness measure.
"Client load/FTE" is another efficiency
measure. If you have a current missions and
measures program set up for a department
take their measures and check off where you
think they contribute. You'll see that all
the programs are taking money. I would ask
everyone in the dept. "what are you doing
to help people get a job?" All positions
need to clearly understand their part in
that. The receptionist should know that
his/her job is to take a call from someone
and get them connected with a caseworker.
Look at the assessment of a client getting
a job. They found there was another
strategy in keeping the job. It had
nothing to do with whether they were in the
right job or not. This is a way for you to
prioritize the allocation of resources
within a program.
Page 14, Cascading Performance Measures.
This is showing the different levels of
measures. Alignment is important. You
align to the program. You don't force your
activities to fit within a mission. You
need to be clear about what the program is
and align to it. You don't start at the
basis of "here's everything we do, now
what's our mission?" The mission should be
unifying. It should not be inclusionary.
Don't start at the bottom and move back.
All it does is justify everything you are
doing instead of showing that what is done
aligns with the program. In political
arenas, agency folks can go here real
quickly. Then you become confused and just
appropriate funds.
Page 15, Why Cascading Measurement is
Important. This is an efficiency example
for PepsiCo. Profits are efficiency or
effectiveness measurements?
Senator Randy
Phillips
The mission is to the shareholders.
Craig Holt
(Detail the crossover of efficiency and
effectiveness.) You need to look at other
key things in private enterprise besides
making money, market share, customer
satisfaction, etc. (Talk about meeting of
three vice presidents from Snackfoods,
Beverages and Restaurants and explaining to
them the net profits and losses. It's
important to announce to shareholders the
total profits rather than the smaller loss
in one of the divisions.) Important to note
who uses what information. You need to deal
with high level information not the smaller
levels.
Important information for appropriate
people.
(Detail the restaurant division and the
mission misalignment as the reason for
spinning the restaurants off. Not because
they were inefficient or effective.)
Mission misalignment doesn't mean they are
doing a bad job. They could be focused and
moving at contrary purposes. Brings the
mission piece into this.
Page 16, Baseline Targets That Make Sense.
Show the importance of having baseline
data.
Page 17, Uses of Performance Measures.
Examples of other governments that have
actually used measures. I was asked who
was doing the best with performance based
budgeting. It is easier for cities to use
this system they have fewer issues to deal
with. I believe you will see around the
country that the big cities will get this,
then counties, then some states. I don't
know if the federal government will ever
get there because it gets so hard to put
your finger on it.
Representative Con
Bunde
The psychology of bureaucracy. If I become
too efficient and too effective, I get less
money. The bureaucracy I get to control and
that makes me feel good decreases, so why
would I want to become more effective and
more efficient?
Craig Holt
That's why the balance of efficient and
effective is so important. It's not just
about being efficient or effective. (Quote
State of Oregon, Adult and Family Services.
Their mission was client self-sufficiency.
He said they should be a ten-person agency.
They started with 1000 people.)
Representative Con
Bunde
That is the key. You have to have someone
willing to work himself/herself out of a
job.
Craig Holt
They have to be focused on their mission.
Road maintenance will never go away. Some
have a mission that is respectively a
short-term focus.
In the 1960s and 1970s there was lots of
money. You would find out the Legislative
priorities and create programs to fit
those. There are people brought up in the
government sector who are trained that way.
They are not stupid; they just know it a
certain way.
Don't think it's a matter of working
yourself out of a job, just refocusing on
your mission. Then you can move in
different directions. You probably have
plenty of work to do.
Senator Pete Kelly
I disagree with Representative Con Bunde. I
see people who want to do a good job but
they are just resistant to change. Everyone
wants to be proud of the work they do.
Representative Con
Bunde
Welfare to work in Alaska. We've moved 30-
percent of people off welfare. We should
start reducing the bureaucracy. But that's
not going to happen.
Craig Holt
It's one thing to get a job, but another to
keep them there. May be time to redirect
their missions and monitor for the next 3-5
years. You want them to keep their jobs
because they are effective. You will see
many people who can't keep their welfare
jobs.
Representative Gail
Phillips
If more states could put this into place,
at some point it should be logical that the
federal government could also do it for
those basic policies like education and
transportation. The things that would
effect the nation as a whole and don't have
that many variables because of the state. I
think its something we should continue to
work for. Should get feds to implement.
Craig Holt
I think it will bring more focus to the
federal sector when the state level really
gets focused. Right now the states are
taking a lot that used to be federal purvey
because they have to implement it and are
focused on service delivery. I believe
that's going to happen. (List other
governments using the Methods and Measures
process.)
Page 18, Key Questions - for Discussion
with Agencies. Things you should ask
agencies. This is not your job, but it is
theirs to explain to you.
Senator Randy
Phillips
Is this your priority? I think determining
who are your customers is most important.
Craig Holt
If you ask agencies first, you drop to the
Taco Bell level and will get all.
Senator Randy
Phillips
I have my constituents as my customers.
Craig Holt
This isn't micromanaging. Your
constituents are your customers.
What did you do last year?
What are you going to do different this
year? Doing the same thing in a different
environment is not going to give you same
result.
You are investing, not spending the money.
You need to change your definition.
Senator Pete Kelly
Is that the purvey of the Executive Branch?
How did you do last year?
Craig Holt
Clarify
You need to ask agency and staff questions.
Is their duplicity and are other options
viable?
Page 19. Caution - Simplify to Succeed.
(Hunting analogy)
Senator Randy
Phillips
I mentioned this last year, and I want to
say again. Don't let the perfect ruin the
good.
Craig Holt
It's more important to measure the right
thing than the measure itself.
Representative Con
Bunde
So an inaccurate measurement of the right
thing is better than a good measurement of
the wrong thing?
Craig Holt
There needs to be more quarterly reporting.
Page 20. City of Seattle. Get into use
quickly; don't spend too much time on the
details.
Tape: SFC - 99 #26, Side A
Senator Dave Donley
We won't be able to do without the support
of the executive branch.
Craig Holt
Important to have cooperation.
You need to agree on a common approach, a
focused set of terms. Can't just give your
measures and they return theirs.
Your working on this encourages me.
Representative Gail
Phillips
Have you sat down and given this kind of
in-depth presentation to the committee
before?
Craig Holt
I don't think so.
Unknown
We have had short presentations.
Senator Dave Donley
We need to have a way to make the executive
branch accountable.
Senator Pete Kelly
We only have check-writing power.
Representative
Eldon Mulder
Senator Dave Donley has a good point. This
is an argument for a more empowered
Legislative Budget and Audit Committee.
(Refer to the Executive Budget Act and
quote.)
We are supposed to be getting quarterly
reports. If we're not here they don't have
anyone to give them to. We should empower
the Legislative Budget and Audit Committee
more.
Senator Pete Kelly
Did it work well in a noncompetitive
environment? Can it work in a competitive
environment? What I found is that agencies
were less able to handle. The process was
probably better for private agencies.
Craig Holt
I talk about results.
TCQ discussion
Senator Pete Kelly
Craig Holt
Representative Con
Bunde
Our goal is to get reelected. We need to
get Office of Management and Budget on
board. With the competitive nature, we run
into difficulties. What can we do to
appeal to them?
Craig Holt
I was encouraged by six agencies that I
specifically listed.
Co-Chair Sean
Parnell
We need to go into subcommittee and have a
commitment. We need to hold them
accountable. It's up to each of us to help
hold them accountable. Get them in the
public spotlight and praise if they follow
or take action if not.
I'm committed to further imbedding missions
and measures into our system. If not we
are just spending money.
Representative Gail
Phillips
Question on accountability. Last year.
Co-Chair Sean Parnell hit right on the
head. If we are going to have results we
need they have to identify the issue in the
subcommittee.
Craig Holt
It is critical to focus on how not why.
Last year you asked why, this year asking
how that's a big step forward.
Co-Chair Sean
Parnell
Craig Holt is available today and tomorrow
for individual consultations with
subcommittee chairs. I encourage you to
schedule a time with him. Take a specific
budget and division established last year.
Look for one not yet done.
Representative
Eldon Mulder
We do have a list of those done last year.
Encourage new members to work with Craig
Holt. We only did one maybe two divisions
within each department.
Co-Chair Sean
Parnell
Representative Con
Bunde
Thanks for beginning the process. I
delegate to the co-chairs to work with
Office of Management and Budget
Co-Chair Sean
Parnell
I sent personally invitation to Office of
Management and Budget today. I expect to
continue to work with them.
Representative
Eldon Mulder
Acknowledge Jack Krienheder from Office of
Management and Budget is here today.
Co-Chair Sean
Parnell
Adjourn 9:56 am.
SENATE FINANCE COMMITTEE
LOG NOTES
2/10/99
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